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Sounds like a fascinating book. I’ve thought about this quite a bit, having had my magazine ministry for years. I ended up running it on a donation basis - gave a suggested donation amount for those who were able to pay and wanted to do so. But for those who couldn’t pay, we always sent issues completely free of charge. God blessed us with good prices on publishing and supplies, and I always tried to be very careful how the donation money was used, and we were *never* short of funds, no matter how much we gave away - pretty amazing. But if it’d seemed necessary I’d have had no hesitations in finding business-like ways to raise money to support the ministry.

Israel Wayne recently posted on Facebook about a self-supporting family ministry he got to observe while in Japan. Don’t know if his post is viewable to the public or not, but the link is here: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=85827121431

So yeah, I’m all for the idea of ministries being financial self-sufficient if God leads that way, but there *does* need to be a definite line between business and ministry in some areas. I’m really bothered, for instance, by churches that have gift shops and coffee bars in their buildings - brings to mind Jesus’ sharp rebuke about making His place of worship into a den of thieves. hmmm Did the book address that angle of the topic at all?

Having suggested donation amounts for the service is similar to a business mentality. Mr. Befus does talk about having two levels of prices. One is for those who can afford the standard price (for above-standard service!) and the other is for those who are unable to afford it.

God does see to it that our needs are met. There may not be much extra, but the bare costs are seen to.

Unfortunately I can’t see that article of Israel Wayne’s. For my own future, I want to be able to invest and involve myself with the local businesses. In the group that I have studied the stock market with, above every other line of work in the day is the office of pastor. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with relying on donations only, but people are loath to do something that takes them away from the time that could be spent in ministry. It’s a tough road. grin

Mr. Befus was clear that he was promoting businesses that are outside of the church and focused on helping the community. They may be managed, especially at first, by men from the church that started it but that it is not to be inwardly focused. If they offer special benefits for church members it tends to tarnish their reputation in the community.

One is for those who can afford the standard price (for above-standard service!) and the other is for those who are unable to afford it.

Yeah, that’s a really good policy - and it’s what I’m doing with my freelance design. By giving a $10/hr discount to non-profit jobs and ministry projects, I feel like I’m keeping a “ministry” aspect to my business, while yet making something to cover my time. I’d do it all free if I didn’t have to be practical. raspberry

It’s so easy to think that time spent earning money is “wasted” time compared to that spent in technical “ministry.” Yet even the Apostle Paul kept up his trade while involved in full-time mission work, instead of insisting that others give enough to support him fully. I’ve probably mentioned how my pastor is another good example of one who has found a balance in this area: he’s a full-time pilot besides keeping up with all a pastor does. After delivering the executives to their meetings, he studies for sermons until they’re ready to fly home. This approach has worked out perfectly, enabling him to fully support his family and single-handedly fund the church as it got off the ground. He didn’t take any money from the church for a number of years, and now only accepts enough to cover housing for his family to have a place to stay near the church on weekends (their real home is 45 min. away, since that’s where he works).

Israel’s post isn’t anything private, so I’ll past the text of it here:

~~~

About 50 years ago 5 families and seven single men (or was it the other way around?) came to Japan to spread the gospel. Phil, Dave and Paul Broman were brothers who were part of the group. Phil never married but Dave had 18 children (including adoptions) and Paul had 22 (including 12 adoptions). The Fanger family also had a many children, as did a couple others. You can meet Paul here: http://www.grapecity.com/About/ExecutiveManagement/MessageFromTheChairman.aspx

Not only did these folks do a lot of evangelism (distributing Bible literature to every home in Japan, preaching in cities by driving around in vans equipped with loud-speakers, printing tracts and concise Bibles, and preaching on street corners), but they taught their children to think entrepreneurally. They started businesses and gave their children opportunities to be self-supporting.

The businesses include Meysen Academy (where I spoke yesterday), which is an elite private school here in Sendai that teaches over 3,500 students. The preschool and kindergarten class is about 1,200 and the rest are Elementary level ESL (English as a Second Language) students. http://www.meysen.ac.jp/

Another business is GrapeCity, which is a software development company that makes software for programmers and record keeping software for schools. http://www.grapecity.com/Default.aspx

You can meet some of these wonderful brothers in Christ here:
http://www.grapecity.com/About/ExecutiveManagement/Default.aspx

These businesses have made millions of dollars over the years, and have enabled these missionaries to be self-supported so they don’t have to continually beg for money like many American ministries do. It is an inspiring example of what a few families can accomplish (they have businesses and missionaries in Myanmar, China, India, Sri-Lanka, Korea, the U.S. and many other places) if they have large families, work together, give their children good business skills and opportunities and a heart for evangelism. I wish we would see more of this type of thing in America and elsewhere.

Now I’m excited about how these families are flourishing and I’m supposed to be going to bed. Thanks for posting Israel Wayne’s article. That really is fantastic.

Having to be practical is hard, isn’t it? Yeah, when my work has been for a ministry I have normally taken what was offered instead of naming a price. A lot of those people don’t know what I normally work at, which is actually nice. Your approach is probably better long-term though.

That is great for your pastor. I would wonder how much he is involved around the families of the church during the week, but if it is working out well enough then that is good. The sermons on Sunday are great but only go so far. The ways that we live our lives are a witness also, and speak louder than our words. Supporting himself to avoid a burden on the church says a lot and that statement is made while he works as well.

David Befus tries to make a point that you’ve heard Mark make. The idea is that when ministers can prove and support themselves, they gain a lot of credibility and are harder to criticize.

That is one detriment to our popular method now. I’ve had friends who “saw through” all of the reasons that things were done in church. It needs to be real, not a façade like the rest of the world puts on. That only looks good for so long. As the quote above says, when it is a real business you can’t make everything look good indefinitely by using accounting magic.

Yeah, it’s good to see real-life examples like this - a reminder that such is achievable, not just a far-fetched ideal. smile

I’ve done work for a “make an offer” donation basis, too - that can be a good arrangement, but I’ve found that lots of times people aren’t comfortable with it and want at least an estimate of how much I’d like for my time. Good to be flexible about it.

You’re right - our pastor isn’t able to be as involved in the daily life of the congregation as would sometimes be ideal. But he tries hard (telephone and email help), and since he often has only 3-4 days of work a week he’s able to make quite a few visits. He’s actually been on leave quite a bit this year (i.e., the whole month of April) because of budget cuts at his company. That gave him a chance to do a lot more local outreach and discipleship stuff, which was great, but I don’t know how difficult it’ll make things for his family financially. Since he seems to keep up with work and ministry so well most of the time, I actually wonder most about him finding enough quality time for his family (wife and 2 kids, age 14 and 16) - but I guess that’s another tangent of the topic. wink

Bottom line is that time and priorities are a hard balancing act for anyone…and I was going to say that it is even harder for those called to full-time ministry - but aren’t *all* believers called to such?

Yes, it is exciting to see other people implementing these ideas. It’s been my dream/vision since before I had heard of anyone other than Paul doing this and I knew my direction might be a little more costly. Finding out that other people are doing the same thing does help tremendously. This is why the author of Hebrews said not to forsake gatherings—they do edify.

I hope that your pastor’s family is not forgotten in everything. It really should not be a choice between ministry or family as both should coexist.

You’re right that all of us are called to minister. David said he would walk in his own house with an upright heart. That is a bit more than full-time ministry. grin

Yes - and the fact that we are all “ministers” gives extra motivation to making time for fellowship with others. “You are a minister - you must be there!” It’s a really exciting thing to see the Body functioning beautifully and joyfully and effectively, as happened at our church outreach this afternoon.

If we are all ministers, it’s good reason for everyone to examine their own lives to be sure that they will pass the tests of life. Psalm 50:16,17 has some harsh words.

Outreach? Someday I’ll have to figure that out. My current church is more of a fellowship of people who have their own ministries. It’s almost impossible to get everyone free on the same days for something organized together.

Yes…it’s a sobering responsibility. Makes me think of Jer. 15:19: “...if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as My mouth…” That’s a big prerequisite.

That’s great that those in your fellowship have taken initiative to start their own ministries. We don’t really have that in our church, but it seems like a good “problem” to have in that it shows how everyone has a heart for ministry and aren’t just hanging on the coat tails of the pastor. Though, on the other hand, there is something extra special and powerful about all working *together* for a common purpose, where each person has a vital and unique role to fill. Guess there’s a place for both individual and corporate ministry/outreach.

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